Online PhD/DBA


ZN

Hi to everyone!

I am writing here to get your advice on a specific case that I am totally confused and do not know what to do. I hold a BSc and an MBA from the UK and for personal and professional reasons I also wanted to do a PhD/DBA. My goals after successful completion of the proframme would be the following:

a) First, to be eligible to work in academia, mainly as a visiting lecturer and not as full-time employed by a university (however, this is also an option).
b) As a secondary reason to be able to have another paper to excel in my career at the private sector.

I am currently working for a multinational consumer goods company as a financial analyst. My priority is to keep working in the private sector but also combine my main job with lecturing as a visiting lecturer at a local university (in the EU), only because of personal interest in teaching. Due to personal reasons (unable to attend a full-time PhD/DBA due to my working hours) my only option is an online degree. I know the pros/cons of this option, but since this is the only one I have I would like your advice on the following two questions:

1) Which type of Doctorate degree you think that better fits my needs, a PhD or a DBA? I guess since my main focus is on academia, a PhD would make a better fit, right?

2) Since the cost is a big factor and since all online degrees I have found are not tuition-free as one does not work for the university to get it for free, I was looking for a very reasonable cost-wise programme. Therefore, I have found so far the following universities:

California Pacific University (CPU), DBA and PhD options
Swiss Management Center (SMC University), DBA option or a dual degree option (DBA from SMC University and a PhD from University Central of Nicaragua)

What do you think of the three options above (CPU, SMC DBA or SMC DBA+PhD dual-degree)? Which one would you go for and why?

Thank you very much in advance!

Cheers!
Efan

Hi to everyone!

I am writing here to get your advice on a specific case that I am totally confused and do not know what to do. I hold a BSc and an MBA from the UK and for personal and professional reasons I also wanted to do a PhD/DBA. My goals after successful completion of the proframme would be the following:

a) First, to be eligible to work in academia, mainly as a visiting lecturer and not as full-time employed by a university (however, this is also an option).
b) As a secondary reason to be able to have another paper to excel in my career at the private sector.

I am currently working for a multinational consumer goods company as a financial analyst. My priority is to keep working in the private sector but also combine my main job with lecturing as a visiting lecturer at a local university (in the EU), only because of personal interest in teaching. Due to personal reasons (unable to attend a full-time PhD/DBA due to my working hours) my only option is an online degree. I know the pros/cons of this option, but since this is the only one I have I would like your advice on the following two questions:

1) Which type of Doctorate degree you think that better fits my needs, a PhD or a DBA? I guess since my main focus is on academia, a PhD would make a better fit, right?

2) Since the cost is a big factor and since all online degrees I have found are not tuition-free as one does not work for the university to get it for free, I was looking for a very reasonable cost-wise programme. Therefore, I have found so far the following universities:

California Pacific University (CPU), DBA and PhD options
Swiss Management Center (SMC University), DBA option or a dual degree option (DBA from SMC University and a PhD from University Central of Nicaragua)

What do you think of the three options above (CPU, SMC DBA or SMC DBA+PhD dual-degree)? Which one would you go for and why?

Thank you very much in advance!

Cheers!
Efan
quote
Duncan

These are terrible universities. A college that would accept a PhD from these schools would almost certainly not require a PhD at all. Why not attend the one of the closer traditional universities to you which allows a part-time PhD in management?

These are terrible universities. A college that would accept a PhD from these schools would almost certainly not require a PhD at all. Why not attend the one of the closer traditional universities to you which allows a part-time PhD in management?
quote
Duncan

I don't know where you are but, of course, if you expand your geographical scope you'll find real, state-recognised, universities that teach on weekends, or in block weeks or whatever.

There are also universities that have external PhD candidates: almost all German universities for example will allow external candidates to submit. That's very inexpensive.

The for-profit schools you mention, honestly they are one level above diploma mills, will not get you in to teach at anywhere that won't accept your MBA. If there is any chance you might ever want a full-time role then you'll want a real university.

The DBA is, of course, not well respected (other than the Harvard DBA, which is a renamed PhD).

If I were you, I would really do everything I could to attend a real university part-time or by blended learning for a PhD. After that, either an external PhD or a PhD by published work will be the way forward.

You'll need some leverage to get there. Do you have access too any private data that would interest a potential PhD supervisor? Write something thoughtful. Send it to the 50 best academics on your topic around the world and explain that you want to co-author something to develop your ideas and put your data to work. Write a great paper, and then use that to get the attraction of a supervisor at a university that will support an external PhD or PhD by published work.

I don't know where you are but, of course, if you expand your geographical scope you'll find real, state-recognised, universities that teach on weekends, or in block weeks or whatever.

There are also universities that have external PhD candidates: almost all German universities for example will allow external candidates to submit. That's very inexpensive.

The for-profit schools you mention, honestly they are one level above diploma mills, will not get you in to teach at anywhere that won't accept your MBA. If there is any chance you might ever want a full-time role then you'll want a real university.

The DBA is, of course, not well respected (other than the Harvard DBA, which is a renamed PhD).

If I were you, I would really do everything I could to attend a real university part-time or by blended learning for a PhD. After that, either an external PhD or a PhD by published work will be the way forward.

You'll need some leverage to get there. Do you have access too any private data that would interest a potential PhD supervisor? Write something thoughtful. Send it to the 50 best academics on your topic around the world and explain that you want to co-author something to develop your ideas and put your data to work. Write a great paper, and then use that to get the attraction of a supervisor at a university that will support an external PhD or PhD by published work.
quote
Duncan

1. If you want to work in business, then the added value of a DBA is very limited: which roles really want managers who can study one problem over years? It would be better to take an EMBA if your MBA is not from a top 50 global school. I really don't accept the rhetoric that the DBA is more applicable. In the DBA, you describe a business problem and apply MBA tools to it. In the PhD you develop theory from data. I think the PhD approach is more valuable when applied to the real world because theory is transferrable. Yes a DBA from a top school is better than an PhD from a no-name school for employers, but you are not mentioning top-teir schools in your first post. The DBA is, generally, a luxury good rather than a route into academia. For example, in a traditional PhD (like the one I am taking) I have a lot of coursework beyond core methods, I work as a teaching assistant, I am an assistant o professors on a wide range of research projects, I get training as a teacher and HEA membership and meet my supervisor frequently. That is great training for academia, and few DBAs do any of that. I don't see how a DBA can really supervise disserations, for example, without broader training in methods other than the ones you use yourself.

2. As far as I know all German state universities allow external PhD candidates. However, you would need to find a supervisor who wanted to help you and with whom you had a common language. I guess it might be the same in Scandinavia and Benelux. This google search will show you how broad it is in Germany: https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=site%3A.de+external+PhD+candidates But you will need to write something academic and use that as your hook to look worth the bother. I, for example, pitched into highly relevant potential supervisors in Munich and could not even get a phone call. You will need to show that your research topic will connect with theirs valuably.

3. A naive employer might value a specialisation but, honestly, I don't see if being more impressive than any other verified certificate course.

[Edited by Duncan on Nov 12, 2015]

1. If you want to work in business, then the added value of a DBA is very limited: which roles really want managers who can study one problem over years? It would be better to take an EMBA if your MBA is not from a top 50 global school. I really don't accept the rhetoric that the DBA is more applicable. In the DBA, you describe a business problem and apply MBA tools to it. In the PhD you develop theory from data. I think the PhD approach is more valuable when applied to the real world because theory is transferrable. Yes a DBA from a top school is better than an PhD from a no-name school for employers, but you are not mentioning top-teir schools in your first post. The DBA is, generally, a luxury good rather than a route into academia. For example, in a traditional PhD (like the one I am taking) I have a lot of coursework beyond core methods, I work as a teaching assistant, I am an assistant o professors on a wide range of research projects, I get training as a teacher and HEA membership and meet my supervisor frequently. That is great training for academia, and few DBAs do any of that. I don't see how a DBA can really supervise disserations, for example, without broader training in methods other than the ones you use yourself.

2. As far as I know all German state universities allow external PhD candidates. However, you would need to find a supervisor who wanted to help you and with whom you had a common language. I guess it might be the same in Scandinavia and Benelux. This google search will show you how broad it is in Germany: https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=site%3A.de+external+PhD+candidates But you will need to write something academic and use that as your hook to look worth the bother. I, for example, pitched into highly relevant potential supervisors in Munich and could not even get a phone call. You will need to show that your research topic will connect with theirs valuably.

3. A naive employer might value a specialisation but, honestly, I don't see if being more impressive than any other verified certificate course.
quote
Duncan

1. Well, Bradford is pretty good so few MBA schools would accept you, but perhaps something like the AMP at Harvard?

2. The Nordic schools you mentioned are all excellent choices.

3. $500 is nothing but, really, will employers really value that?

1. Well, Bradford is pretty good so few MBA schools would accept you, but perhaps something like the AMP at Harvard?

2. The Nordic schools you mentioned are all excellent choices.

3. $500 is nothing but, really, will employers really value that?
quote
Duncan

1. If you have a terrible MBA then good schools will let you take a second MBA. If you have a good MBA, as you do, then they normally will not let you take an EMBA because someone else will benefit more from your seat.

3. I can't see it making an impact on your CV unless you honestly think it will impact your skills.

1. If you have a terrible MBA then good schools will let you take a second MBA. If you have a good MBA, as you do, then they normally will not let you take an EMBA because someone else will benefit more from your seat.

3. I can't see it making an impact on your CV unless you honestly think it will impact your skills.
quote
cvm

Hi Efan,

Aside Duncan's advices based on his significant experience in this domain, I would add:

1. If you are interested in some after MBA programs (other than PhD/DBA), you might look at:

MAM @ Yale (Master of Advanced Management)
http://som.yale.edu/our-programs/master-advanced-management

MSBA @ USC / Marshall (Master of Science in Business Administration)
http://www.marshall.usc.edu/masters

Diplomas in Strategic Management @ Oxford (Said Business School)
- Financial Strategy
- Global Business
- Organizational Leadership
- Strategy and Innovation
http://www.sbs.ox.ac.uk/programmes/degrees/diplomas

Global Degrees @ NYU University (Stern School of Business)
- MS in Global Finance
- MS in Risk Management
- MS in Business Analytics
http://www.stern.nyu.edu/programs-admissions/global-degrees

Executive Masters @ HEC Paris
- Executive MSc in Finance
- Consulting and Coaching for Change (with Said Business School)
http://www.exed.hec.edu/themes/coaching

Executive Master in Consulting and Coaching for Change @ Insead
http://specialised-degrees.insead.edu/executive-master-in-consulting-and-coaching-for-change/

Executive Education @ Harvard University (HBS)
- PLD (Program for Leadership Development)
- GMP (General Management Program)- HBS’s EMBA alternative
- AMP (Advanced Management Program)
http://www.exed.hbs.edu/programs/pld/Pages/default.aspx
http://www.exed.hbs.edu/programs/gmp/Pages/default.aspx
http://www.exed.hbs.edu/programs/amp/Pages/default.aspx

Executive Education @ Stanford University (Stanford Business School)
http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/exed/sep/

I saw that you have financial background so, there are some great schools above that have financial programs for people like you.

2. Regarding the PhD vs. DBA, Duncan is right. I have done some research by myself and saw that generally a DBA is not so well perceived in comparison to the PhD. However, I have listed below some great schools that offers part time PhDs, Exec PhDs and DBAs. You can get a nice rounded picture about the subject.

Exec Doctorate in Business @ Georgia State University (Robinson)
http://edb.robinson.gsu.edu/

PhD and DBA @ Cranfield University School of Management
http://www.som.cranfield.ac.uk/som/p982/Programmes-and-Executive-Development/Doctorates/PhD-or-Executive-Doctorate

Executive PhD @ Cass & Tias (Tilburg)
http://www.cass.city.ac.uk/courses/executive-phd

DBA @ Lingnan and Emlyon
http://www.lingnan.sysu.edu.cn/DBA/dbapro.asp

DBA @ IE
http://www.ie.edu/business-school/degrees/doctorate-business-administration


Phd @ HHL (Part Time)
http://www.hhl.de/en/programs/doctoral-program/

PhD @ WHU (Part Time / External - possible)
https://www.whu.edu/en/programs/doctoral-program/

PhD (part time) @ RSM (Erasmus University)
http://www.rsm.nl/research/part-time-phd/overview/

DBA @ Grenoble School of Management
http://en.grenoble-em.com/doctorate-business-administration-dba
http://en.grenoble-em.com/dba-doctoral-programs

DBA @ Durham Business School (Durham University)
https://www.dur.ac.uk/business/programmes/dba/

DBA/Exec PhD @ Nyenrode
http://www.nyenrode.nl/Education/doctorateprograms/EDP/Pages/default.aspx

EDBA @ Paris Dauphine
http://edba.dauphine.fr/en.html

Regards,

Hi Efan,

Aside Duncan's advices based on his significant experience in this domain, I would add:

1. If you are interested in some after MBA programs (other than PhD/DBA), you might look at:

MAM @ Yale (Master of Advanced Management)
http://som.yale.edu/our-programs/master-advanced-management

MSBA @ USC / Marshall (Master of Science in Business Administration)
http://www.marshall.usc.edu/masters

Diplomas in Strategic Management @ Oxford (Said Business School)
- Financial Strategy
- Global Business
- Organizational Leadership
- Strategy and Innovation
http://www.sbs.ox.ac.uk/programmes/degrees/diplomas

Global Degrees @ NYU University (Stern School of Business)
- MS in Global Finance
- MS in Risk Management
- MS in Business Analytics
http://www.stern.nyu.edu/programs-admissions/global-degrees

Executive Masters @ HEC Paris
- Executive MSc in Finance
- Consulting and Coaching for Change (with Said Business School)
http://www.exed.hec.edu/themes/coaching

Executive Master in Consulting and Coaching for Change @ Insead
http://specialised-degrees.insead.edu/executive-master-in-consulting-and-coaching-for-change/

Executive Education @ Harvard University (HBS)
- PLD (Program for Leadership Development)
- GMP (General Management Program)- HBS’s EMBA alternative
- AMP (Advanced Management Program)
http://www.exed.hbs.edu/programs/pld/Pages/default.aspx
http://www.exed.hbs.edu/programs/gmp/Pages/default.aspx
http://www.exed.hbs.edu/programs/amp/Pages/default.aspx

Executive Education @ Stanford University (Stanford Business School)
http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/exed/sep/

I saw that you have financial background so, there are some great schools above that have financial programs for people like you.

2. Regarding the PhD vs. DBA, Duncan is right. I have done some research by myself and saw that generally a DBA is not so well perceived in comparison to the PhD. However, I have listed below some great schools that offers part time PhDs, Exec PhDs and DBAs. You can get a nice rounded picture about the subject.

Exec Doctorate in Business @ Georgia State University (Robinson)
http://edb.robinson.gsu.edu/

PhD and DBA @ Cranfield University School of Management
http://www.som.cranfield.ac.uk/som/p982/Programmes-and-Executive-Development/Doctorates/PhD-or-Executive-Doctorate

Executive PhD @ Cass & Tias (Tilburg)
http://www.cass.city.ac.uk/courses/executive-phd

DBA @ Lingnan and Emlyon
http://www.lingnan.sysu.edu.cn/DBA/dbapro.asp

DBA @ IE
http://www.ie.edu/business-school/degrees/doctorate-business-administration


Phd @ HHL (Part Time)
http://www.hhl.de/en/programs/doctoral-program/

PhD @ WHU (Part Time / External - possible)
https://www.whu.edu/en/programs/doctoral-program/

PhD (part time) @ RSM (Erasmus University)
http://www.rsm.nl/research/part-time-phd/overview/

DBA @ Grenoble School of Management
http://en.grenoble-em.com/doctorate-business-administration-dba
http://en.grenoble-em.com/dba-doctoral-programs

DBA @ Durham Business School (Durham University)
https://www.dur.ac.uk/business/programmes/dba/

DBA/Exec PhD @ Nyenrode
http://www.nyenrode.nl/Education/doctorateprograms/EDP/Pages/default.aspx

EDBA @ Paris Dauphine
http://edba.dauphine.fr/en.html

Regards,







quote
Duncan

Some of these are really terribly weak. The Paris Dauphine website even warns students that they will not be able to teach with the degree, and that they cannot use the title "Doctor".

Some of these are really terribly weak. The Paris Dauphine website even warns students that they will not be able to teach with the degree, and that they cannot use the title "Doctor".
quote
sts

Hello all,

I will share my humble views on this topic, drawing on my ongoing experience as a DBA participant for just over one year as of now. In addition to this, I also made some significant reading about the DBA vs PhD divide prior to joining a DBA programme.

1. DBA, the UK DBA in particular since this is the one I know better, is a research doctorate, just like a PhD. The difference lies mainly on the type of research to be conducted, with some differences also present in the admission criteria and programme structure. There is some significant research on this very topic in the literature, for interested readers. (Actually for admission to a UK DBA, a relevant Master’s degree is required in almost all cases, to the best of my knowledge, along with some significant management and/or other senior level experience, which makes the admission criteria relatively more rigorous, in my view.)

2. The views about the reputation of the DBA stated here in this forum topic are highly subjective, as is the term reputation itself, and seemingly lacking solid evidence (Subjectivity is also ok, by the way, but just know that as it is.). It is for sure that the PhD is the most common and established doctorate globally, however also we should note that professional doctorates, with the DBA being probably the most well-known of them, have emerged from needs. To put it simply, with a well-known phrase, “to bridge the gap between academia and business”.
For example, here is an excerpt from a The Economist article, which can be accessed via the link below: (also notice the heading: The disposable academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time)
“(…)Whining PhD students are nothing new, but there seem to be genuine problems with the system that produces research doctorates (the practical “professional doctorates” in fields such as law, business and medicine have a more obvious value).(…)”
http://www.economist.com/node/17723223
I have no intention of discrediting a PhD. Actually, I have respect for all kinds of true research endeavour. I just wanted give an example for how opinions may vary about this.

3. Many well-respected universities offer DBA programmes, and new ones continue to join. To count just a few; UK: Durham, Warwick, Manchester, etc., US: University of Florida (Warrington), University of Wisconsin (Whitewater), Washington University in St. Louis (Olin), etc. This is a supportive indicator, in my view, since I don’t think that prestigious institutions like these would put their reputations at risk by offering non-reputable degree programmes.

4. Yes, the DBA is mainly for senior professionals who want to develop doctoral level research capabilities, however a career in academia is also possible with a DBA, since it is a research doctorate. This can easily be verified by doing a simple Linkedin search. This is especially true for a part-time academic career along with an ongoing professional career.

Before finishing, @Efan, I can suggest that perhaps you may have a look at Middlesex University (London) DBA programme, which I think can be suitable for your requirements, along with many other alternatives, of course. The programme has little mandatory on-campus attendance, however offers full flexibility for face-to-face contact and on-campus study. The University has some significant experience in WBL (work-based learning), which is an approach closely related to a professional-practice based research doctorate. The University’s Business School is listed among the QS Global Top 200, and the University itself is ranked among the global top 700 and top 800 in the QS and THE rankings respectively. (Yes, I am currently studying there, so I am taking care not to give an impression of even a smallest bias. Most of what I have written here are therefore not my own experience or evaluation, but independently published facts and figures.)

[Edited by sts on Nov 13, 2015]

Hello all,

I will share my humble views on this topic, drawing on my ongoing experience as a DBA participant for just over one year as of now. In addition to this, I also made some significant reading about the DBA vs PhD divide prior to joining a DBA programme.

1. DBA, the UK DBA in particular since this is the one I know better, is a research doctorate, just like a PhD. The difference lies mainly on the type of research to be conducted, with some differences also present in the admission criteria and programme structure. There is some significant research on this very topic in the literature, for interested readers. (Actually for admission to a UK DBA, a relevant Master’s degree is required in almost all cases, to the best of my knowledge, along with some significant management and/or other senior level experience, which makes the admission criteria relatively more rigorous, in my view.)

2. The views about the reputation of the DBA stated here in this forum topic are highly subjective, as is the term reputation itself, and seemingly lacking solid evidence (Subjectivity is also ok, by the way, but just know that as it is.). It is for sure that the PhD is the most common and established doctorate globally, however also we should note that professional doctorates, with the DBA being probably the most well-known of them, have emerged from needs. To put it simply, with a well-known phrase, “to bridge the gap between academia and business”.
For example, here is an excerpt from a The Economist article, which can be accessed via the link below: (also notice the heading: The disposable academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time)
“(…)Whining PhD students are nothing new, but there seem to be genuine problems with the system that produces research doctorates (the practical “professional doctorates” in fields such as law, business and medicine have a more obvious value).(…)”
http://www.economist.com/node/17723223
I have no intention of discrediting a PhD. Actually, I have respect for all kinds of true research endeavour. I just wanted give an example for how opinions may vary about this.

3. Many well-respected universities offer DBA programmes, and new ones continue to join. To count just a few; UK: Durham, Warwick, Manchester, etc., US: University of Florida (Warrington), University of Wisconsin (Whitewater), Washington University in St. Louis (Olin), etc. This is a supportive indicator, in my view, since I don’t think that prestigious institutions like these would put their reputations at risk by offering non-reputable degree programmes.

4. Yes, the DBA is mainly for senior professionals who want to develop doctoral level research capabilities, however a career in academia is also possible with a DBA, since it is a research doctorate. This can easily be verified by doing a simple Linkedin search. This is especially true for a part-time academic career along with an ongoing professional career.

Before finishing, @Efan, I can suggest that perhaps you may have a look at Middlesex University (London) DBA programme, which I think can be suitable for your requirements, along with many other alternatives, of course. The programme has little mandatory on-campus attendance, however offers full flexibility for face-to-face contact and on-campus study. The University has some significant experience in WBL (work-based learning), which is an approach closely related to a professional-practice based research doctorate. The University’s Business School is listed among the QS Global Top 200, and the University itself is ranked among the global top 700 and top 800 in the QS and THE rankings respectively. (Yes, I am currently studying there, so I am taking care not to give an impression of even a smallest bias. Most of what I have written here are therefore not my own experience or evaluation, but independently published facts and figures.)
quote
Duncan

1. No. The DBA is not just like the PhD. As I pointed out above, "in a traditional PhD (like the one I am taking) I have a lot of coursework beyond core methods, I work as a teaching assistant, I am an assistant to professors on a wide range of research projects, I get training as a teacher and HEA membership and meet my supervisor frequently." The admissions are not more rigourous for the DBA: just compare the selection rates. At Edinburgh, for example, we had 500 applicants for the 20 seats in my PhD intake.

2. Obviously opinions are from people, so that makes your view as subjective as mine. How can someone assess the difference? For example, they can look at job adverts can see which jobs ask for PhDs and which ask for PhDs or DBAs. They can compare curricula. They can compare the publication record of PhD and DBA students at the same institutions in respected journals... there are many objective ways to compare the outcomes. They are not the same.

3. and 4. No-one is saying that the DBA programmes at top schools are not reputable, and this candidate is not looking at top schools. But they are not respected **as routes into academia**, and most places that would accept a DBA rather than a PhD would also accept no doctorate at all. That is also observable in academic job adverts. Attending IESE, for example, is not an effective route to find work in Japan. That does not mean it is not reputable, simple that it's nt effective for that path.

Honestly, if this person wants to teach in the broadest range of universities does anyone think they would be better suited in a doctorate by work-based learning than by a part-time PhD at a traditional university?

[Edited by Duncan on Nov 13, 2015]

1. No. The DBA is not just like the PhD. As I pointed out above, "in a traditional PhD (like the one I am taking) I have a lot of coursework beyond core methods, I work as a teaching assistant, I am an assistant to professors on a wide range of research projects, I get training as a teacher and HEA membership and meet my supervisor frequently." The admissions are not more rigourous for the DBA: just compare the selection rates. At Edinburgh, for example, we had 500 applicants for the 20 seats in my PhD intake.

2. Obviously opinions are from people, so that makes your view as subjective as mine. How can someone assess the difference? For example, they can look at job adverts can see which jobs ask for PhDs and which ask for PhDs or DBAs. They can compare curricula. They can compare the publication record of PhD and DBA students at the same institutions in respected journals... there are many objective ways to compare the outcomes. They are not the same.

3. and 4. No-one is saying that the DBA programmes at top schools are not reputable, and this candidate is not looking at top schools. But they are not respected **as routes into academia**, and most places that would accept a DBA rather than a PhD would also accept no doctorate at all. That is also observable in academic job adverts. Attending IESE, for example, is not an effective route to find work in Japan. That does not mean it is not reputable, simple that it's nt effective for that path.

Honestly, if this person wants to teach in the broadest range of universities does anyone think they would be better suited in a doctorate by work-based learning than by a part-time PhD at a traditional university?
quote
sts

I do not know your specific programme requirements, however what I know is that a typical UK doctorate does have a strong emphasis on research, with little or no taught component (apart from those starting by taking some master's level courses i.e. the integrated route). See the Vitae website, for example: "In the UK there is usually little or no taught element to a doctorate" (https://www.vitae.ac.uk/doing-research/are-you-thinking-of-doing-a-phd/what-is-a-doctorate-1). As opposed to your statements, it is -not always but generally- the DBA programmes which have more taught components, as far as I know from my research so far.

In my view, you are mistaken in your statement that most places accepting DBAs as academics would accept no doctorate as well. To see job ads like "a PhD or DBA...", "a PhD or equivalent", "a research doctorate", perhaps you may just want to have a look at jobs.ac.uk, and various other job boards.

Efan started his post by mentioning his intention to have a part-time or visiting academic position along with professional career, with full time academic career being an option, so a professional doctorate may also be quite relevant.

Lastly, QAA clearly classifies the DBA in the same category with the PhD and other doctorates, thus making them equivalent, without doubt.

[Edited by sts on Nov 14, 2015]

I do not know your specific programme requirements, however what I know is that a typical UK doctorate does have a strong emphasis on research, with little or no taught component (apart from those starting by taking some master's level courses i.e. the integrated route). See the Vitae website, for example: "In the UK there is usually little or no taught element to a doctorate" (https://www.vitae.ac.uk/doing-research/are-you-thinking-of-doing-a-phd/what-is-a-doctorate-1). As opposed to your statements, it is -not always but generally- the DBA programmes which have more taught components, as far as I know from my research so far.

In my view, you are mistaken in your statement that most places accepting DBAs as academics would accept no doctorate as well. To see job ads like "a PhD or DBA...", "a PhD or equivalent", "a research doctorate", perhaps you may just want to have a look at jobs.ac.uk, and various other job boards.

Efan started his post by mentioning his intention to have a part-time or visiting academic position along with professional career, with full time academic career being an option, so a professional doctorate may also be quite relevant.

Lastly, QAA clearly classifies the DBA in the same category with the PhD and other doctorates, thus making them equivalent, without doubt.
quote
Duncan

Look, it's simply not the case any more. I struggle to think that there are many British universities that do not have either a taught component or a requirement to have a a research masters. 20 years ago, maybe, but certainly in the Russell group it's normal to have a full academic year of coursework and supervised reading. DBAs have less, not more.

I just took a look at jobs.ac.uk, as you suggested, and there's only one role (of course, at a former polytechnic which runs a DBA) that says it would accept a DBA.

The DBA is a doctorate, as is a PhD. Indeed they are equivalent in level. But that does not mean they are the same, any more than an MD and a JD are the same. To enter into academia, the PhD is by far the more widely accepted qualification.

Look, it's simply not the case any more. I struggle to think that there are many British universities that do not have either a taught component or a requirement to have a a research masters. 20 years ago, maybe, but certainly in the Russell group it's normal to have a full academic year of coursework and supervised reading. DBAs have less, not more.

I just took a look at jobs.ac.uk, as you suggested, and there's only one role (of course, at a former polytechnic which runs a DBA) that says it would accept a DBA.

The DBA is a doctorate, as is a PhD. Indeed they are equivalent in level. But that does not mean they are the same, any more than an MD and a JD are the same. To enter into academia, the PhD is by far the more widely accepted qualification.
quote
sts

They are equivalent but clearly not the same, agreed. That's what I wrote at the very beginning of my first reply. There are differences in the type of research, target audience, and desired -primary- outcomes. For a full time faculty position, a PhD is the surest way to go, this is also agreed, but still possible with a DBA as well. The word PhD is used almost synonymously with a doctorate, normally, so even if the requirement for a position is given as PhD, you may find that a DBA would also be welcome when you ask specifically (I did).

What I therefore try to point out is that both of them are research doctorates, and an academic career with a DBA is also possible, though it may not be the primary purpose of a DBA, generally. They are different, but equivalent, and not either one is inferior to the other. That's the point I have come after some significant reading in various resources.

Particularly for a kind of hybrid career path, blending a professional career with also a presence in academia, the DBA may work quite well.

Regards,

[Edited by sts on Nov 14, 2015]

They are equivalent but clearly not the same, agreed. That's what I wrote at the very beginning of my first reply. There are differences in the type of research, target audience, and desired -primary- outcomes. For a full time faculty position, a PhD is the surest way to go, this is also agreed, but still possible with a DBA as well. The word PhD is used almost synonymously with a doctorate, normally, so even if the requirement for a position is given as PhD, you may find that a DBA would also be welcome when you ask specifically (I did).

What I therefore try to point out is that both of them are research doctorates, and an academic career with a DBA is also possible, though it may not be the primary purpose of a DBA, generally. They are different, but equivalent, and not either one is inferior to the other. That's the point I have come after some significant reading in various resources.

Particularly for a kind of hybrid career path, blending a professional career with also a presence in academia, the DBA may work quite well.

Regards,
quote
Duncan

A.friend.of mine did the Leicester DocSocSci and found that very extensive and well structured. Also look at the Pecs international PhD, perhaps. But German state unis will be great value.

A.friend.of mine did the Leicester DocSocSci and found that very extensive and well structured. Also look at the Pecs international PhD, perhaps. But German state unis will be great value.
quote
Mike W

No. The DBA is not just like the PhD...They can compare the publication record of PhD and DBA students at the same institutions in respected journals... there are many objective ways to compare the outcomes. They are not the same...No-one is saying that the DBA programmes at top schools are not reputable, and this candidate is not looking at top schools. But they are not respected **as routes into academia**, and most places that would accept a DBA rather than a PhD would also accept no doctorate at all.


This really depends on the DBA program; some programs are referred to as "DBA" only because of politics within a given university system, and I know a bit of that, having served in academia for almost 15 years, the last 8 to 9 in full time academia at an AACSB-accredited U.S. b-school. For example, Louisiana Tech has a DBA program which is in sum and substance a PhD, but LSU used its influence within the State of Louisiana System to prevent another PhD offering being created within a system b-school. Some DBA programs are heavily research-based, such as, it appears, a number of programs in Europe. There are hundreds of b-school academics who have DBAs in the U.S., particularly in the field of accounting. It all just depends on the circumstances. Of course, all else being equal, one would rather have a PhD in academia than a DBA, but one cannot throw a blanket over all DBA programs and say they are "not just like a PhD." Some are, and even among those that are not, some are close enough to being academic-research-oriented that they can give one a reasonable shot of entering tenure track academia, such as my colleague one office over, who holds a DBA and had six peer-reviewed pubs last year from solid journals, won an academic research award at our last faculty banquet, turns his nose up at practitioner-based research, makes over $150K USD a year and is well on track to receive tenure.

You're obviously bright and hard-working or you wouldn't be where you are, but you probably don't yet have enough gray hairs and experience to make blanket statements. I was a genius in graduate school and capable of making absolute statements about a broad range of fields, yet now that I'm on the lee side of 50 and well into the second decade of teaching, it's amazing how much less I know and how little qualified I am to make unequivocal statements.

[Edited by Mike W on Jan 08, 2017]

[quote]No. The DBA is not just like the PhD...They can compare the publication record of PhD and DBA students at the same institutions in respected journals... there are many objective ways to compare the outcomes. They are not the same...No-one is saying that the DBA programmes at top schools are not reputable, and this candidate is not looking at top schools. But they are not respected **as routes into academia**, and most places that would accept a DBA rather than a PhD would also accept no doctorate at all. [/quote]

This really depends on the DBA program; some programs are referred to as "DBA" only because of politics within a given university system, and I know a bit of that, having served in academia for almost 15 years, the last 8 to 9 in full time academia at an AACSB-accredited U.S. b-school. For example, Louisiana Tech has a DBA program which is in sum and substance a PhD, but LSU used its influence within the State of Louisiana System to prevent another PhD offering being created within a system b-school. Some DBA programs are heavily research-based, such as, it appears, a number of programs in Europe. There are hundreds of b-school academics who have DBAs in the U.S., particularly in the field of accounting. It all just depends on the circumstances. Of course, all else being equal, one would rather have a PhD in academia than a DBA, but one cannot throw a blanket over all DBA programs and say they are "not just like a PhD." Some are, and even among those that are not, some are close enough to being academic-research-oriented that they can give one a reasonable shot of entering tenure track academia, such as my colleague one office over, who holds a DBA and had six peer-reviewed pubs last year from solid journals, won an academic research award at our last faculty banquet, turns his nose up at practitioner-based research, makes over $150K USD a year and is well on track to receive tenure.

You're obviously bright and hard-working or you wouldn't be where you are, but you probably don't yet have enough gray hairs and experience to make blanket statements. I was a genius in graduate school and capable of making absolute statements about a broad range of fields, yet now that I'm on the lee side of 50 and well into the second decade of teaching, it's amazing how much less I know and how little qualified I am to make unequivocal statements.
quote
Duncan

In my earlier post I made the point that my comments about the DBA apply to its dominant form: a professional doctorate delivered part-time with a much shorter volume and an emphasis on application than on a contribution to academic theory. So, again, I suggest we agree that a full time doctorate that is identical to a PhD is as good as a PhD from the same school. But my point about the practitioner doctorate still stands. Even the best, like Case Western, are not producing similar outcomes. A part time DBA who regularly contributes to serious journals is not an example, but an exception.

In my earlier post I made the point that my comments about the DBA apply to its dominant form: a professional doctorate delivered part-time with a much shorter volume and an emphasis on application than on a contribution to academic theory. So, again, I suggest we agree that a full time doctorate that is identical to a PhD is as good as a PhD from the same school. But my point about the practitioner doctorate still stands. Even the best, like Case Western, are not producing similar outcomes. A part time DBA who regularly contributes to serious journals is not an example, but an exception.
quote
sts

I think it depends on the programme; however, the DBA also requires a contribution to theory, but in a different way: It aims to generate theory from within the practice. In most cases, the DBA has another, more emphasised requirement: Bringing about change in a real business setting. This is about impact, and this requirement can make the DBA even more rigorous than its academic counterpart. Of course, this also depends on the programme and the candidate. Additionally, a part-time doctorate can well be a further asset, indicating the commitment and self-discipline of the candidate, who, generally, would have a full-time job along with his/her doctoral studies.

I would rather not rely too much on over-generalisations, and just admit different point of views, pros and cons of different types of programmes. At the end of the day, both are UK doctorates according to the QAA. Equivalent, and different. This simple.

I think it depends on the programme; however, the DBA also requires a contribution to theory, but in a different way: It aims to generate theory from within the practice. In most cases, the DBA has another, more emphasised requirement: Bringing about change in a real business setting. This is about impact, and this requirement can make the DBA even more rigorous than its academic counterpart. Of course, this also depends on the programme and the candidate. Additionally, a part-time doctorate can well be a further asset, indicating the commitment and self-discipline of the candidate, who, generally, would have a full-time job along with his/her doctoral studies.

I would rather not rely too much on over-generalisations, and just admit different point of views, pros and cons of different types of programmes. At the end of the day, both are UK doctorates according to the QAA. Equivalent, and different. This simple.
quote
Duncan

I don't see how we can discuss pros and cons, or make theory, without generalising. With the exception of DBAs which are full time PhD, the general experience is that they are very much less likely to publish in good journals or, as academics, to be able to supervise PhD students.

I don't see how we can discuss pros and cons, or make theory, without generalising. With the exception of DBAs which are full time PhD, the general experience is that they are very much less likely to publish in good journals or, as academics, to be able to supervise PhD students.
quote
Giggdini

Hi guys, I am also interested in the topic. I am stationing in Hong Kong.

Here are what I have on hand,

Group 1 - local HK university that offers Face to Face part-time DBA
- Polytechnic University, HK$7xxK
- City University, HK$7xxK
- Baptism University, HK$590K

Group 2 - UK university that offers distance learning DBA
- Manchester, $6xxK
- Liverpool, $8xxK
- EBS, $240K
- Aston, $444K (Year 1 face to face in HK, Year 2 - 4 DL)

I did my first degree at ANU, Australia; MSc in Marketing in CUHK, HK. DBA is more 1) my personal interest of stretching myself and see if I can get a Dr title and 2) potentially go into part-time HE lecturer role.

My criteria are,
1. $$$, I do think HK$400K is an acceptable range given the DBA is just a bonus to me at this stage. So my elimination only EBS & Aston left.
2. a DBA from a better know B School. From a HK/Asia perspective, Aston weight slightly higher than EBS in this case because, 1) Aston can be recall by some of the 60-70s as a UK B School with some history. UHW, on the other hand is popular for its top-up bachelor degree in HK, so more well known as a top-up degree University.
3. I do also concern the probability of completion. Hence I am skew a bit more to Aston one due to its first year face to face research courses in HK.

These are my consideration so far. And right I also believe the availability of thesis mentor who is familiar / interested in my research topic does matter. I did some quick research on Aston website and have located a 2 professors that have higher chance. While a bit hard for me to browse on EBS one as not all academia's research interests are clearly shown.

I do also concern if it is the right time for me to pursue a DBA now. I am in 32, vs I found from most of the DBA programs they are claiming 44-47 is the average age of their students.

Well, after reading the threat, I think I shall also consider distance learning PhD in Management from Leicester?

Hi guys, I am also interested in the topic. I am stationing in Hong Kong.

Here are what I have on hand,

Group 1 - local HK university that offers Face to Face part-time DBA
- Polytechnic University, HK$7xxK
- City University, HK$7xxK
- Baptism University, HK$590K

Group 2 - UK university that offers distance learning DBA
- Manchester, $6xxK
- Liverpool, $8xxK
- EBS, $240K
- Aston, $444K (Year 1 face to face in HK, Year 2 - 4 DL)

I did my first degree at ANU, Australia; MSc in Marketing in CUHK, HK. DBA is more 1) my personal interest of stretching myself and see if I can get a Dr title and 2) potentially go into part-time HE lecturer role.

My criteria are,
1. $$$, I do think HK$400K is an acceptable range given the DBA is just a bonus to me at this stage. So my elimination only EBS & Aston left.
2. a DBA from a better know B School. From a HK/Asia perspective, Aston weight slightly higher than EBS in this case because, 1) Aston can be recall by some of the 60-70s as a UK B School with some history. UHW, on the other hand is popular for its top-up bachelor degree in HK, so more well known as a top-up degree University.
3. I do also concern the probability of completion. Hence I am skew a bit more to Aston one due to its first year face to face research courses in HK.

These are my consideration so far. And right I also believe the availability of thesis mentor who is familiar / interested in my research topic does matter. I did some quick research on Aston website and have located a 2 professors that have higher chance. While a bit hard for me to browse on EBS one as not all academia's research interests are clearly shown.

I do also concern if it is the right time for me to pursue a DBA now. I am in 32, vs I found from most of the DBA programs they are claiming 44-47 is the average age of their students.

Well, after reading the threat, I think I shall also consider distance learning PhD in Management from Leicester?



quote
Duncan

Aston is the obvious choice, since HW lacks any of the triple crown accreditations and many universities will thus not hire faculty from it. But is there no supervisor able to work with you on a part time PhD?

Aston is the obvious choice, since HW lacks any of the triple crown accreditations and many universities will thus not hire faculty from it. But is there no supervisor able to work with you on a part time PhD?
quote

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